sophia_sol | Eagle eagle eagle

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Eagle eagle eagle

Just watched The Eagle today, finally! It was...well, I enjoyed it! Not exactly a good movie, but fun. Marcus was surprisingly endearing in his straightforward earnestness. Esca was lovely. But there were so many things wrong with this movie, I can't even. Not least of which is, MY GOD that was the worst-planned quest ever. And in the book they were actually clever about how they did things, both the searching and the stealing! Which meant that in adapting the book to make a movie, they made deliberate choices to make the characters look less clever? IDEK.

Other random thoughts:

They killed the kid! NOOOOO! *sadface forever*

"So what now?" "You decide." ALKDHJSLDKJF. Not the happy gay farmers ending, but I LOVE IT ANYWAYS. And then Esca's smile. :D

Oh my god, if I had any interest whatsoever in writing a humiliation kink I'd be changing my chosen bingo line SO FAST. Marcus + humiliation would work so well. Just for the record.

And now, have a random stupid little ficlet.

THIS IS NOT THE EAGLE FIC I MEANT TO WRITE.

Freedom

Esca rather liked it among the Seal People. It wasn't home; nothing could be home. Rome had destroyed any chance he had at feeling at home again. But it was...familiar, in enough ways. He'd had dealings with the Seal People before, and knew their customs, which were, after all, not too different from his own.

Rome was foreign, and anything else was comfortable by comparison.

He hadn't intended for things to go this way. He was going to lead Marcus on a merry chase all over the north until he finally got tired of his bullheaded quest.

But then they were surrounded by the Seal People, and he had to improvise. It had worked out rather well, all things considered.

So here they were: Esca, accepted among them, able to be a real person again after so long under the heel of Rome; and Marcus, nothing but a bad-tempered slave.

His honour bound him to Marcus, he knew, and he could not change that. But it was good to act, at least for a little while, as his own man. And so when Marcus looked betrayed, when Marcus glared at him with suspicion, when Marcus was filled with deadly anger, Esca -- Esca said nothing.

If he truly wanted to, he could have found the time to have a private conversation with Marcus, and tell him that this wasn't a betrayal but an act. He could even have told Marcus in public, because as long as his tone was properly harsh and superior the Seal People would have no idea what he was telling his slave.

But he couldn't bring himself to do it.

These days were for himself, an unlooked-for final time to be Brigantes before returning himself to Marcus and to Rome -- and he could pretend, he could almost pretend that he meant to stay.

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YAY THE EAGLE! I think. Like you my reaction to most of Marcus' decisions was OH GOD WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID. And not in an endearing way. Whatever, at least it was HONORABLE ROMAN STUPIDITY.

And I AGREE with your ficlet, because part of me also wished that Esca would just, you know, stay with the Seal People and keep Marcus as an ill-trained housepet. Buuuuuuut Esca would not do that.

Yyyeah, there were MANY times when I wanted to tell Marcus to look at his life, look at his choices, because they were STUPID ones.

Ahaha, ill-trained housepet! :D Yeah, there's a certain part of me that wants that too! Except for the bit where the Seal Prince is apparently the sort of dude who's willing to kill his kid for not doing what he's supposed to? That makes me like the Seal People rather less. Except I'm pretty sure that scene was there mostly to point at and go SEE THIS IS WHY THEY'RE EVIL AND IT'S OKAY TO FIGHT THEM. Maybe in an AU where that didn't happen? And also Esca has a slightly different understanding of honour? (man, honour and shame were like THE main theme of this movie. ALL OVER THE PLACE.)

Ah yes... I had rather forgotten that that happened. Eh. I think I mostly just wanted it because clearly it was the better choice for Esca. And I liked Esca rather better than Marcus despite Marcus' ~intense Romanness~. Actually, I think I just never got over how much I wanted them to kill each other to actually ship them? Oops.

LAUGHING OUT LOUD. ACTUALLY. That is certainly a valid reaction to their canonical movie relationship!

I definitely liked Esca better too -- lots better. I just didn't talk about him as much in my review/reaction because I was more surprised about liking Marcus. Esca's clearly the more intelligent and more complicated of the two of them, and I like him. I want him to be lots and lots of happy! He deserves to be happy. (and I think, given that grin at the end, that hanging out with Marcus makes him happy, god knows why?)

Oh well. Esca, if he really makes you happy, I suppose I will let your idiotic Roman boyfriend in the house as long as he remembers to bathe regularly.

Heeeeee! I'm sure Esca's very appreciative of your magnanimity! And Marcus.

I am actually not entirely convinced that staying with the Epidii would have been better for Esca--I mean, we don't see his people, so it's hard to tell from the movie, but the Brigantes were a southern tribe from Roman-occupied territory. Even if they were more rural and less Romanized (and I am not sure we can assume that--book!Esca is probably from a rural clan, but I am less sure about movie!Esca) the movie version of the Epidii is beyond rural, and also clearly has a very different lifestyle (the real Epidii were probably somewhat closer to the Brigantes, culturally, but even so)--both the Romans and us tend to flatten the British tribes into "Britons," but as far as Esca is concerned, he might not have had much more in common with the Epidii than the Romans than a common language.

I'm not sure there is a good choice for Esca, is the problem--there's living in Roman-occupied territory, with all his clan dead and the remainder of the Brigantes more-or-less pacified (although they did revolt a few years post movie! with expected consequences); or there's trying to fit in with a northern tribe out of the reach of Rome, one with a very foreign culture in many ways, and where he has no kin or friends. Or he could go to Ireland, but same deal as the latter there, in spades.

(I'm still not sure why he likes Marcus, but, uh, I guess that's why I've written thousands of words of fic since February.)

Marcus + humiliation would work so well.
I WAS THINKING THAT TOOOOOO! (Yes, I watched it today \o/ )

I like how you made Esca's decision not to include Marcus in what the heck was going on make a certain kind of sense. Because in the movie, that is contrived tension if ever I saw it.

Hee, you watched it! What did you think?

And yeah, SO DEFINITELY contrived tension. I just stared at the screen with WTF all over my face because it made no sense.

Well, it makes perfect sense if you want Channing Tatum's face to radiate hurt and confusion *g*

I thought it was okay, but I was kind of shocked by how little happens. I mean. NOTHING happens. For what, two hours? If this ISN'T the story of Marcus and Esca on roadtrip of lurve (imagine dramatic trailer voice over: as they journey into the wilds, they journey towards each other), I really don't know what it's about... It was very pretty? But there was a distinct lack of dialogue. Or action. Or reasoning behind, well, anything.

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty accurate description of the movie! It was really not a very good movie, even though I enjoyed it. (Roadtrip of lurve! *loves*)

Hee, yes. Thank god it has so much slash. I mean, it's actually pretty startling how slashy it is!

It is SUPER slashy! And it's even more fascinating when compared with the slashiness in the novel. They made a very slashy movie out of a very slashy book, but in the process entirely changed the slash dynamic, and that's just really interesting.

Oooohhhh, really? Tell me more! Have you read the book?

(I really enjoyed how clear the dynamic is in the movie -- it's always hard to tell from fic how much is fanon, but I absolutely adore how they both struggle with it UNTIL the point Esca goes, "Screw it. Heel, Marcus." Or something to that effect. <3 )

I HAVE read the book! And it is actually rather quality, in comparison with the movie which has nothing redeeming about it other than the slash and the pretty landscapes.

So in the book, Marcus and Esca grow close and grow to trust each other during the time that Marcus is healing from his injury, so that by the time they set off on their quest they are basically bestest friends. And Marcus gives Esca his freedom BEFORE they even leave on the quest. So the book's slash dynamic is LOOK HOW SUPER CLOSE THESE TWO GUYS ARE. NO, CLOSER. In comparison with the movie's THEY HAVE TO RELY ON EACH OTHER BUT CAN THEY TRUST EACH OTHER WITH SO MUCH ANGER/BITTERNESS/RESENTMENT? It's best-friend-slash versus enemyslash.

(hah, yeah. Oh, movie! Oh, Esca and Marcus!)

Did you read it before the movie came out or as a result of the movie? *is curious*

That actually sounds totally adorable. Does Marcus also have some semblance of proper motivation in the book or is it still mostly Honor blabla? Hee, it is kind of funny they made it enemy-slash instead of friends-slash... But wait, Esca is still on top, right? D:

I read it as a wee kiddie once, and then eventually forgot all the details. And then when the movie came out and I started reading the fic, I decided to reread the book. So the answer is kind of both?

Marcus' motivation in the book IS still pretty much Honour Blah Blah Blah. BUT he goes about everything in a sensible way and plans ahead and everything. And his fixation on honour isn't nearly as huge as it is in the movie.

The dynamics in the book in terms of toppiness are also somewhat different. Marcus, for instance, is actually NOT a repressed sub. But Esca's a bit more difficult to read in this respect. Well, Esca in general in the book is more difficult to get a handle on -- the book is very definitely All About Marcus. You could read Esca as a happy sub, actually, although then that can get into skeevy territory with respect to the inescapable slave/master thing, with both of them buying into Rome's ideas about proper roles of slaves and masters. (and being freed doesn't actually free the ex-slave from the power dynamics of the Roman master-slave relationship)

So wrt the book I'm happier to read Marcus and Esca as a relationship that's not about power dynamics, unlike the movie version of the relationship where the D/s is totally a thing.

That's nice. I didn't even know it was a book.

Sensible!Marcus sounds very different from Movie!Marcus *g* I might actually be curious about seeing that.

Hmm... I am slightly disappointed about Marcus not being a sub in the book -- but it makes total sense that he wouldn't read that way, whereas it's easier to get into unintentional D/s vibing with movies. I can understand about not really liking the power structures of traditional Roman society; it could get pretty skeevy.

If you're interested in reading the book, it's called "Eagle of the Ninth" and is by Rosemary Sutcliff. I do recommend it! And if you do read it I'd be curious about your opinions on the power dynamics in it. I read the book before watching the movie, so my perspective on it might be different than yours!

I don't know what it says about me, but I was totally not expecting it to be written by a woman. I know it's no magic seal of non-fail, but it does make me much more interested in picking it up....

...huh, actually, I see what you mean! It does look a lot like a Boys Own Adventure sort of book from the plot summary or whatever, which is the sort of book one would expect a guy to write.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. Between this intense focus on One Man's Honor and a Strong Friendship between him and another guy... it looks pretty much like something from the Straight Boys' Club... It's really cool that it's not though. Do you know how it fares in terms of historical/ cultural accuracy?

Yeah, I know, right? That's pretty great.

In terms of accuracy -- I believe from what I've read other people say that it's pretty good at the accuracy thing a lot of the time, but that there's occasionally also stuff that she definitely gets wrong. Hmm. I was sure I'd bookmarked some meta on the subject, but apparently not! So I can't speak to this in any greater detail.

Unfortunately I'm PRETTY IGNORANT when it comes to roman and british history/culture of the time, so I can't say anything about it myself.

That is okay, I was just wondering! I'm afraid I'm pretty ignorant myself, considering how it's my field and all. There was some stuff in the movie that felt off to me, but not in any way I could really say for sure (like, the idea that Marcus gets his pick of provinces? that seems highly unlikely to me. I would have expected him to need to actively lobby if he wanted to go someplace specific, but I'm no expert).

Yeah, that does sound off to me too. I vaguely recall that in the book he didn't get to pick? But then I have a notoriously terrible memory so don't trust what I say....

(and my bookshelf is a total mess right now or I'd just dig the book out and check. I would organize it, except that to do so I need a second bookshelf. *headdesk*)

It would even make a certain kind of sense if he were simply given the same assignment as his father, out of their sense of familial tradition. After the initial invasion it can't have been a very attractive place to go (I think I remember some Vindolanda letters to that effect. Um, O.o *backs away from Wikipedia*)

Hee, I am sorry about the continued dismal state of your bookshelf. Here's hoping you can get it sorted soon!

Ooh, those are some very interesting wiki articles! I'd never heard of those letters. *wanders through links, fascinated*

Yeah, unfortunately I probably can't do anything about my bookshelf till September when I will be moving again, hopefully this time to a place with slightly more space. So in the meantime I just look at my collection of books and despair. Ah well, such is life. (and it would even maybe be okay if I didn't KEEP ON ACQUIRING BOOKS.)

Who'd've thunk that study trip to Hadrian's Wall would be totally useful for determining the historical validity of my latest slash fandom? And they say academia has no real-life application!

(Some of those letters are pretty endearing. Just imagine a bunch of Italians stuck in a wet English winter -- I feel kind of sorry for them, despite the whole world-conquering thing.)

Hee, I refuse to feel sorry for you for acquiring new books. New books are lovely, don't even pretend ;oP

You took a study trip to Hadrian's Wall? AWESOME. You are lucky, living on a continent with all that visible history.

(those letters do sound pretty endearing!)

Yeah, not gonna lie, new books are always awesome, even if I have to resort to stacking them on the floor. (my newest acquisition: a complete Hans Christian Anderson collection, super cheap from a thrift store! It excites me.)

Well, I had to cross an ocean to get there, but it was not much of a hardship. It's funny that of all the Roman sites we could have gone to, someone thought we should go to England -- the buttcrack of the Empire :oP But all told, it was cool. There are mostly sheep there now XD

Well, if it's only until September, that must make it a bit easier to live with. (Um, you know I have a ginormous H.C. Andersen thing, right? He is my hero. I devoured a 400+ page biography about him last summer. He is such a woobie, and potentially ace (certainly entirely homoromantic). He is a giant woobie! I wrote a ridonculous fic about him! *flails a little*)

No, I didn't know you have a ginormous HC Andersen thing, actually! TELL ME MORE!

(I mostly just know him because I have a ginormous fairy tales thing. So.)

ALSO, I was somehow entirely unaware that you wrote a fic about him -- I just read it, and it is adorable!

Hah, I think I wrote the fic before we knew each other? And so possibly also the worst of my Andersen phase was over by that time :o) D'aww, thanks for the kudos! It was my first fic in forever, actually.

The biography I read is actually translated. It is by Jens Andersen, and it's available at amazon.com for pretty cheap, jfyi ;o) I highly recommend it, it's a thoroughly researched piece of work and Jens Andersen (no relation, btw) is himself an excellent storyteller.

Even though people are most familiar with Andersen's fairy tales (which are awesome and work on so many levels), he was actually terribly prolific and wrote drama, poetry, and novels -- beside staggering amounts of letters, and daily journal entries. I find his drama especially interesting for how his contemporaries scorned it -- they frequently accused him of plagiarism, and he did 'borrow' a lot from other writers, but he always put different spins on it (usually horribly weepy Mary Sue spins, see above re: woobie).

He was quite the character, a very gentle person who was prone to great bouts of sadness if he felt at all disliked. He loved entertaining, but people would sometimes feel he was 'too much', which would make him sad (and sometimes scarily vindictive). Basically he was a prime drama queen <3 Um, yes, I am quite caught up in this Author Cult, but he was just so presh!

Ooh, *adds Jens Andersen's book to To Read List* HC Andersen sounds like a fascinating dude!

Your talk of the other things he's written has got me curious about what my new anthology includes, so I just went and checked. It has more than just his fairy tales, but no poetry, drama, or novels, alas! Apparently it's the complete "stories" of Andersen, not the complete works. Ah well.

He is very cool, I think. He is certainly both queer and non-conforming within the context of his time.

Hee, I am not surprised you only got his complete stories. The Danish Philological Society edition of his complete works takes up some 19 volumes, I think, and that's excluding his letters and diaries *g*

Oh, and he did paper clippings and decoupage. Here's an example. And there are plenty more here (sorry it's in Danish, follow the links that have "samling*" in the title).

I am looking forward, then, to the opportunity to learn more about him!

And omg, that paper-cutting hobby is adorable!

Oh, I like the ficlet! :)

I honestly wish they had filmed the version whose script is on the net, in which everyone is much less stupid. It seems like the stupidity was a fairly late choice in the adaptation and I don't understand it.

Marcus + humiliation would work so well. Just for the record.

Hahaha um. Yeah. That was what I did, um, the day after I watched the movie, for my previous kink bingo card.. Because immediately after I left the theater I noticed that no one, as strange as it sounds, had written one. I am pretty sure this bit of characterization is cemented into my braincanon now.

:D Thank you!

Whyyyyyyy would they actually sit down and decide that what the film needed was more stupidity? It makes NO SENSE. *headdesk* I do not understand TPTB.

Oh my goodness, yes, that fic! I'd totally forgotten about it! *goes to reread it* *happy sigh* Yeah, THAT. And now I don't need to write it myself -- success! Because dude, Marcus/humiliation is TOTALLY braincanon for me too, no question.

Not exactly a good movie, but fun. Marcus was surprisingly endearing in his straightforward earnestness. Esca was lovely. But there were so many things wrong with this movie, I can't even. Not least of which is, MY GOD that was the worst-planned quest ever. And in the book they were actually clever about how they did things, both the searching and the stealing! Which meant that in adapting the book to make a movie, they made deliberate choices to make the characters look less clever?

This in a nutshell. And seconding Sineala--the shooting script is way less stupid, while still keeping the entertaining role reversal.

Oh my god, if I had any interest whatsoever in writing a humiliation kink I'd be changing my chosen bingo line SO FAST. Marcus + humiliation would work so well. Just for the record.

Yeah, um, I got sold on that one PDQ, which...well, it surprised me. A lot. I blame Sineala. FOR EVERYTHING.

These days were for himself, an unlooked-for final time to be Brigantes before returning himself to Marcus and to Rome -- and he could pretend, he could almost pretend that he meant to stay.

Oh, OW.

I like this take...it's an interesting one I hadn't seen before, and I think there's a lot to puzzle out about Esca's motivations there....

I just can't help but wonder, if the shooting script is that much less stupid, WHY they felt the need to change it. I just legitimately do not understand. *sigh*

I think there's a lot to puzzle out about Esca's motivations there....

Yeah, that's why I wrote it -- because I watched that part of the movie and was just like ????? at the screen because why wouldn't Esca explain things to Marcus? It just made things more difficult for them on the night of the theft-and-escape! So this reason came to mind. What other explanations for Esca's actions have you seen/come up with?

Ha, well, join the Club of Bafflement. It's truly puzzling.

What other explanations for Esca's actions have you seen/come up with?

There's the possibility that some of the Seal People might understand Latin, or Esca thinks they might (

bunn likes this explanation); there's the possibility that Esca is still undecided as to his loyalties (linaerys wrote a fantastic story that I think really gets at this well, "The Blood Knows the Path," I think).

I tend to favor a combination of Esca being angry and wanting Marcus to suffer somewhat and Esca not thinking Marcus is a very good actor/liar, and that he will be more convincing if he really believes he's stuck, primarily the latter. But I haven't really gone into this much, since I'm still heavily stuck on Marcus-POV and mostly writing post-movie stuff so I can skip over the difficult bits. Eventually when I get to the Esca backstory fic I'll have to ponder this more.

Interestingly, in the shooting script, Marcus says something like "If you have betrayed me, I will kill you." It actually occurs to him that Esca could be faking; in the final movie, there's no hint that Marcus even entertains that possibility. Of course, in the shooting script, they're much closer to being friends in the second half of the movie.

Hmm, these explanations all do make sense too! And now I have to figure out which is my headcanon, because I'm not so sure I actually BELIEVE what I wrote in that little ficlet.

And that is fascinating, the difference with the shooting script.

I think there is room for multiple headcanons!

Marcus in the shooting script is significantly smaller. Um. You should be able to download the shooting script here (http://ninth-eagle.livejournal.com/50847.html). If not, let me know and I'll reupload it.

Er, *smarter, jeez, I can't type.

Oh hey, awesome! Thank you! *goes to download*

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