The Eagle!

[sophia_sol]

I have a whole big long post about The Eagle and about Eagle of the Ninth that wants to be written. But I keep on trying to write it and just being entirely unable to structure my thoughts into any sort of coherent structure. It is a problem!

And now I've gotten to the point where I've even lost track of what half the points I wanted to make even WERE. So I'll just... do a point form list of stuff until I run out of things to say. Sounds good? Okay!

1. I need to see the movie.
2. The fic for the movie is AMAZING.
3. I love the total history nerdery that seems to go along with this fandom
4. Having now reread Eagle of the Ninth for the first time since I was in, like, elementary school, it seems to me that the book and the movie characterize Marcus and Esca fundamentally differently. And I'm pretty sure I like book!Marcus better and movie!Esca better. Because book!Marcus is actually, you know, intelligent and competent and all that. And movie!Esca has more actual characterization instead of being mostly a cipher.
5. It was really weird to reread Eagle of the Ninth because the only thing I could remember about it was that there was a scene where Marcus was in a dark place with a curtain over the entrance in an attempt to gain the eagle, and there was something TERRIBLE and FOREBODING and WORRISOME while he was in there. But with every thing that happened in the book, as I read it I'd go, oh yeah! That sounds really familiar! So it was nostalgic and suspenseful at the same time! Awesome.
6. I think the relationship between Marcus and Esca is also fundamentally different in the movie versus the book. In the book it's like, WOO BESTIES. ALSO WE TRUST EACH OTHER IMPLICITLY. In the movie, there's a lot more hate and mistrust and tension going on. The relationship is much more fraught. I like both versions of the relationship!
7. I totes adore Cottia but find the Cottia/Marcus thing kinda creepy because of the age difference and because of how young Cottia is. I think of her more as Marcus' kid sister! WHY DID YOU GO THERE, BOOK?
8. Did I mention I love the fic for the movie fandom?
9. I really love the fic.
10. Also the meta.
11. And I know there were more points, but I've lost them. So this is all you get.

Comments

[sineala.livejournal.com]

I agree with pretty much all of your points. :) Re: 4, have you read the shooting script that's floating around fandom? I don't think it was what they actually filmed (some of the existing scenes are too different), but there are many bits where Marcus comes off a lot smarter than he does in the actual movie, and he and Esca are better friends, though it's not like the book, because they still have the frenemy thing going... so generally, it's pretty awesome.

(Not that I didn't like how they were BFFs in the book, but it did bug me that book!Esca was all YAY I ENJOY BEING YOUR SLAVE, more or less.)

[sophia-sol.livejournal.com]

I did read your post about the shooting script! But at the time I didn't have the leisure to look at the script itself. It does fascinate me that they apparently chose to make Marcus stupider than their original plan....

Idk, I didn't find myself at all bothered by book!Esca's total okayness with being his slave. Posssssibly this is the childhood nostalgia talking though. Or maybe it's that I...respected his ability to make that decision for himself? Even though really it's the author making that decision for him. Idk.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Someday I will organize my thoughts on book!Esca properly, but I think it's key that he doesn't define himself as Marcus's slave, and he gets really uncomfortable when other people do so--I think he's keenly aware of his slavery and not okay with it at all.

He does enjoy serving Marcus and YMMV on that, but you know me and my shieldbearer obsession (plus I think it goes both ways, although less explicitly on book!Marcus's part.)

[sophia-sol.livejournal.com]

I would love to read your thoughts on book!Esca, because I think you make a very good point there. Also I kind of want to reread the book paying more attention to Esca, because I got a little caught up in unimportant things like plot while reading it!

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

They're still pretty unformed thoughts, so I don't really have them in a coherent state yet, and I think Thoughts on Cottia & Marcus is probably going to come first. One of these days, though--I feel like the book can't really be taken out of the context of the rest of Sutcliff's work, and it helps to have some grasp of how hierarchical societies worked.

(I am pretty sure that The Shining Company is partly Sutcliff revisiting the Marcus/Cottia/Esca dynamic but with more...hmmm...thought? Prosper is much more aware that bondman and friend coexist uneasily, and Luned is an integral part of their dynamic trio from the beginning, and also more into Conn--tbh, I am not sure what Cottia might see in Marcus romantically, but that's part of why I need to write up that analysis. THIS IS PROBABLY PART OF WHY I LOVE TSC SO MUCH. Prosper I guess also has the advantage of being a Roman--I actually think book!Marcus is something of a jerk a lot of the time, which is an Unpopular Fannish Opinion, it's just that he's an unreliable narrator and obviously doesn't think of himself as a dick, so you have to look for the subtleties in Esca's reactions.)

[sophia-sol.livejournal.com]

Hmm, clearly I need to read The Shining Company, then! It sounds excellent. I think Eagle of the Ninth is the only Sutcliff I've ever read.

Thoughts on Cottia & Marcus would be JUST AS WONDERFUL. I did not notice any jerkness in Marcus' behaviour in the book, but it is probably, as you say, because of the unreliable narrator thing. I am very easily taken in by unreliable narrators. And I LOVE Cottia, but the Cottia/Marcus thing just doesn't make sense to me.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Hmm, clearly I need to read The Shining Company, then! It sounds excellent. I think Eagle of the Ninth is the only Sutcliff I've ever read.

I am a broken record on this topic, but TSC and Frontier Wolf! Both sooooo amazing. (FW also revisits some EOT9 themes, I think--Marcus and Cradoc, for example.) I haven't read a lot of other Sutcliff yet, but those two are ♥_♥

Thoughts on Cottia & Marcus would be JUST AS WONDERFUL. I did not notice any jerkness in Marcus' behaviour in the book, but it is probably, as you say, because of the unreliable narrator thing. I am very easily taken in by unreliable narrators. And I LOVE Cottia, but the Cottia/Marcus thing just doesn't make sense to me.

I adore Cottia to absolute pieces, but I don't think they're in love with each other at the end of the book. I think Cottia is desperate to escape her situation and sees Marcus as the best bet, and Marcus goes "okay," and anyway, he'll probably need a wife eventually, and doesn't think much past that.

I would like to believe that post-book the three of them grow into a happy OT3, and maybe someday I'll try to write it, except I have trouble with book characterization, especially for Esca. (I am...not entirely convinced that Marcus and not Esca, would be the hinge-point of that OT3; I think Cottia and Esca are probably much more on the same wavelength than Cottia and Marcus.)

Marcus not understanding why Esca keeps "putting slavery between them" is the big one for me. It's such a...Roman...thing to think that masters and slaves can be friends and not understand why Esca might not see it the same way (and he obviously does not, by his behavior pre-manumission, although he certainly likes Marcus and cares for him and finds honor in serving him). Marcus's attitude towards Placidus has a whiff of "ewwww, effeminate cinaedus" to it, which again is very Roman--but unusual for Sutcliff, who's normally very kind to effeminate/coded-gay characters. There's other, more subtle stuff, too--basically, I think he's still got a lot of Roman culture blinkers on, which often results in him hurting Esca unintentionally (and possibly Cottia as well) and/or making bad decisions.

Movie!Marcus is, I agree, not as clever or as aware of some of the cultural issues as book!Marcus, but I think he may actually be more conflicted about what his culture expects of him. I think because he's trying harder to conform and hence has had to examine the things he doesn't want to do in his heart more than book!Marcus has--he just has more trouble rejecting the conformity. Book!Marcus conforms less, but that means he hasn't really examined the things he does go along with as carefully. I'm not sure, though.

But the Marcus in my head is sort of a giant sap who tries really hard*, and is not stupid, just not clever. I'm not sure how much of that is book and/or fanon bleedover as opposed to actually present in the movie (although I think my interpretation of some of his actions in the movie, especially north of the Wall, is kinder than a lot of fandom's). I have spent a ridiculous amount of time thinking about movie!Marcus (http://carmarthen.livejournal.com/352887.html) and am not sure how much the Marcus in my head actually resembles him at this point.

IDK, I'm still trying to figure it all out!

*I think the telling moment is when Lutorius tells him the 4th Cohort of Gauls has won their first wreath and Marcus is just so grinning and happy and proud and "omg, my mennnnn they are so awesome eee" and then trying to suppress it and be all Serious and Roman and Officer-y and totally failing. THAT'S my Marcus, pia fidelis.

[sophia-sol.livejournal.com]

I'mmmmm just going to sit here and nod and pretend I have intelligent thoughts about this stuff. Mostly my thoughts right now are, "yes, you make excellent points!" Because you have definitely spent a lot more time than I have thinking about this stuff! I just really like hearing other people talk about things they've thought about a lot, and so I have nothing useful to add.....

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Because you have definitely spent a lot more time than I have thinking about this stuff!

My INCREDIBLE OBSESSION with this fandom, let me show you it. IDEK. (To be fair, I was pretty obsessed with Sutcliff in college, and didn't realize until this fandom provoked me to (re)read some of her books that she really influenced me thematically and stylistically.)

I just really like hearing other people talk about things they've thought about a lot, and so I have nothing useful to add.....

Haha, no worries. I feel this way about a lot of meta. :D

[curuchamion.livejournal.com]

This sounds like a movie I should see!

(Hi. You might or might not recognize me from Dwth's asexual_fandom comm? I am randomly poking round LJ/Dwth reading journals of interesting people. I might friend you at some point.)

(Also, I too read Eagle of the Ninth - and the two sequels - when I was... eight, maybe?... and was SCARED TO DEATH by some of the creepy stuff but also loved them. Although I haven't read them again, uh, since!)

[sophia-sol.livejournal.com]

You totally should! I totally should!

(ohhh, THAT'S where I recognize your username from! Awesome.)

(I didn't realize until LAST WEEK that there were any sequels to Eagle of the Ninth! Hmm, maybe I should seek them out!)

[curuchamion.livejournal.com]

YOU SHOULD. They are good and also Quite Creepy. Though I can barely even remember what they're about - if they even had the same people in, or anything.

[sophia-sol.livejournal.com]

Okay, they are now officially on my To Read list!

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Different people! Sutcliff didn't really do series in the sense of repeating characters.

The Silver Branch and The Lantern Bearers are the ones most often lumped with EOT9, although Frontier Wolf also deals with a direct descendant of Marcus in still-Roman Britain. The dolphin ring and assorted other Marcus+Cottia descendants appear in a lot of her books in more minor roles, though, and even in books where there's no dolphin-ring-bearer, there are other references to the same continuity (the Frontier Wolves' fort, Castellum, is in The Shining Company, for example). Misery & creepiness level of Sutcliff books varies wildly.