sophia_sol | A question for you.

Um...

For me what I classify/have classified in the past as sexual attraction was me thinking to myself, "So, self, would you like to have sex with this person?" and whatever other part of myself habitually takes Part B in internal dialogues goes something like, "Uh, maybe?" and then Part A goes "CONGRATULATIONS YOU HAVE A CRUSH ON SOMEONE!" Unsurprisingly, this has never led to actual sex. Um, and the only time I have engaged in kissing and related activities I did not find it enjoyable or appealing at all. So...um... sorry I am not very helpful on either count! But I am interested to read what other people have to say on the subject!

No, you are helpful - thank you! Any further data on these points is useful to me because these things just don't get DISCUSSED.

This is true! I mean, basically what the world at large tells you about it is that "One day you will wake up and want to have SEX with EVERYONE. And when that happens you should use a CONDOM." Which, IDK, that doesn't seem to quite cover it!

Okay, hold on! After some thought I think I may have a... sort-of sexual answer? I think a large part of what I classify as sexual attraction for me-- which is probably far more important to me than to other sexual people-- is just awareness of where the other person is in physical space.

Like, I find that a good general model (on a very simple level) of how I move through physical space is that stuff classified as "me" (my body) interacts with stuff classified as "not me" (everything else, including other people.) And obviously not much conscious thought needs to go into figuring out exactly where all the not-me stuff is, so long as none of it is actually on a collision path with the me-stuff. So most of the background not-me stuff gets ignored in terms of knowing exactly where it is.

A person to whom I am somehow attracted separates slightly from the rest of the not-me stuff, so that even if I'm not really interacting with them, if they're in the vicinity I still keep a mental tab on where they are and where they're moving. And I would be paying more involuntary attention to the positioning of someone I'm attracted to walking towards me (how far are they? When are they going to stop walking and what will our physical positioning look like when they do?) than someone I'm not attracted to. Which doesn't have much to do with sex organs or emotions, but it's a physical thing which I think has something to do with attraction for me.

Huh, that's really interesting! Thank you!

I can be of no help but am following this post with interest. Especially the kissing thing - it is weird because I'm repulsed but I can sort of imagine sexual attraction, but I just do not get kissing. It's not "keep it far away from me but I can see how some people could really enjoy it" like sex is, it's "? I do not understand? Why do people do this? It just seems as if it would be ridiculously boring?" /o\

Yeah, I am actually with you on understanding the wanting sex more than the wanting kissing. But then, kissing is not a universal human fundamental. It is a cultural thing! There are cultures where erotic kissing is totally not a thing! Whereas sex...yeah, a little bit closer to universal. Given that it's required for species propagation.

I don't know, but I can tell you that I have been writing so much more fic since I decided not to worry about that stuff and just write the world I experience. (Oddly nobody has yet said my 'ship fic is unrealistic or OOC as a result.)

Oh god, I know, that would totally be my strategy these days.* Except this fic is for the "woke up sexual" prompt from the asexuality fanworks meme because SUCH AN AWESOME PROMPT. Which means I need to know what it would be like to be sexual!

*for my Yuletide fic this year I was like, crap! I need to stick in some sexual tension or something! And then I was like, wait, no, I totally don't. So I mostly skipped it.

Ahem, butting in to SQUEEEEE \o/

:D

Here's hoping I get useful information out of responses to this post, because otherwise the fic ain't going to go anywhere!

I'll pimp it at my journal. Hopefully some sexual person will take pity on us :oP

Ooh, thank you! Here's hoping!

There is one person,

china_shop, who is in the process of answering stuff on the LJ side of this post, which is wonderful of her. But so far she's only gotten to the kissing stuff.

And of course it is important to have multiple perspectives on this stuff so as to best understand it!

Hi! Here from your LJ, because, uh... hooray Dreamwidth! :)

Um. I have been thinking about this since you posted, because me and Sexual Attraction had a giant epic first-time run-in slightly later than most people experience it, and I can remember it fairly vividly. The problem is that I still don't really know how to describe it.

Because, see, I spent my entire teenage years firmly convinced I was asexual, after I had a boyfriend at 14 and was in love with him and thought he was pretty but I was aware that Something Was Wrong With Me and I was fairly sure I was supposed to be Feeling Things that I just wasn't and I knew I didn't want to sleep with him or really any other guy and it was all very upsetting. I really really really do not mean to slight asexuality here and I really hope I am not giving that impression, for I am certain it is a totally valid thing, but it turns out that, uh, I wasn't asexual, I was a very very repressed (and sexual) lesbian. Which kind of spectacularly un-repressed on me at 21, when I met the right girl, I guess. (Yes, eight years later, we are still together.)

And I still don't know how to describe the feeling. It was really, completely overwhelming. OH GOD NOW I KNOW WHAT PEOPLE MEAN WHEN THEY SAY THEY WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE, BECAUSE OH MAN DO I WANT THAT RIGHT NOW. WITH THIS PARTICULAR PERSON. NOW NOW NOW RIGHT NOW PLEASE. That kind of thing, only way more intense than capslock can possibly describe. And it just kind of hit me all at once. Hard. And really, okay, I'm just kind of glad I was done going through puberty, and it was still deeply, deeply weird, though it is generally less intense than it used to be, for me. It feels... I dunno... like a biological need does. You know how you'll see it described as some variation of "need" or "want" or "hunger?" I mean, sure, it's not quite the same thing as wanting a sandwich but it's definitely *wanting* something. Like, I can look at my girlfriend and be like, "oh, hey, I want to kiss the back of her neck." Or whatever. Substitute other desires as appropriate.

I don't experience attraction all the time -- though I do, certainly, find my girlfriend very attractive, it's not something I have to consciously notice or check all the time when I'm with her. It is to an extent controllable. Of course, when it isn't it can get a little annoying, because here I am trying to have a conversation about something, or whatever, and my brain is all HEY SEX HEY SEX HEY IT IS A SEXY PERSON. (Apparently other people entertain specific fantasies even about random strangers who they see for ten seconds? I don't, really; the attraction just kind of hangs around fuzzily in my brain.)

And there are certainly people I would call pretty or attractive but that I absolutely do not want in the same kind of driving-instinct MUST HAVE SEX NOW way. (This would be, generally, how I feel about men. There are men I think are pretty. There are, say, hot actors. I absolutely don't want to entertain thoughts of me anywhere near them. The hot actresses, OTOH...)

As for kissing? Huh. I don't know really how to explain that, assuming you mean, like, with tongue. I don't think I like it as much as some people do, so I'm not really the best person to ask. Um. Mouths are intimate? They feel nice?

(hah, yes, I friended you on lj instead of dw, despite liking dw better, because I have a weird thing about liking to be able to easily see the number of comments on both sides of a post, and the footer is only on lj posts, soooo....)

Thank you so much for your long and thoughtful response! I don't really have anything useful to say in reply except that wow, this is so fascinating and alien to me, and thank you!

Oh wait, I do have a few more questions, if you don't mind! What was it like, to suddenly realize you weren't asexual after all? Did it disconcert you? Frighten you? Relieve you? Make you happy? Other things?

(the fic I'm trying to write is a woke-up-sexual fic, a la the woke-up-gay trope only different, so the sudden change thing is very relevant for me!)

What was it like, to suddenly realize you weren't asexual after all? Did it disconcert you? Frighten you? Relieve you? Make you happy? Other things?

Um... all of the above? Possibly the fact that it was me figuring out that I was also a lesbian and had a massive crush on my best friend in the exact same realization kind of complicated things, so I am not sure I can sort out which feelings belong to which piece. (The lesbian thing, I was like, "Hey, wow, that makes so much of my bizarre past behavior make sense now," because apparently I managed to flirt obliviously and come out to people obliviously and then repress it. No, really. This kind of repression takes talent, I guess. *facepalm* So there it made me pretty happy to finally have something make sense about myself.)

The actual sexual attraction thing was honestly kind of, yeah, I'd say frightening at first, because it was, like, here was this ENTIRE REALM OF EMOTION that previously had not existed (like, suddenly my fantasies had me in them, WTF self) and it basically wanted to take over my brain and I didn't know how to handle it or deal with it or even really interpret it (other than OMG WANT WANT WANT) and it was just hitting me all at once. I mean, sure, the actual feeling of attraction is very nice, but it's kind of freaky if you're not used to feeling it. Or so I found.

I am very bad at describing emotion, so feel free to prod me more and I can try to explain more, if you want.

I would totally be interested in seeing the fic that comes out of this. :)

Huh! Thank you! Um, I'm pretty sure it's late at night enough at the moment that I'm incapable of coming up with useful ways to prod for more explanation, so I'll come back when I've had more sleep.

I hope that there WILL be a fic that actually results from all this... XD

Here via

calvinahobbes.

I feel like the kissing thing is a learned behaviour. When Friend A was in high school and doing the sexual exploration thing Friend A said something like "This kissing thing! It is boring! No, seriously, why this kissing thing, I would like to focus on the removal of pants thing instead. He says that the kissing thing will get better; I am unconvinced." Possibly some people take right to it, and are like, "This is awesome! I would like more of this!" but neither Friend A nor I did. When I first started kissing I think my mind responded with something like, "Well, this is boring. I'll just make my own fun then, shall I? *veers off wildly*" I think of kissing as a communications thing. It's a "there you are", an exercise in cooperative movement, an interaction, there are different tones with the amount of pressure and tongue and teeth that's used.* Every once in a while there's some combination of factors that flicks a switch in my mind, but kissing very rarely does anything for me sexually.

*On a more biological than sociological note - there's also information in their smell and the taste of their saliva.

I tend to think of a lot of sexual attraction as a kind of hind brain override. There are people that my brain decides are interesting, and so it tunes into them pretty intensely, so it's "B IS IN THE KITCHEN. YOU CAN NOT SEE THEM BUT THAT IS WHERE THEY ARE." and "B IS SPEAKING. *LISTENS*". There's a heightened awareness of them, even as I'm doing other tasks; they're something that my brain has decided is a priority. My brain is also more aware of people or things that it sees as threats, so, I also have a very keen perception of space and so on with someone who's twigged that radar - different alert system, if you will, but similar result in that respect.

Sometimes there are interesting little moments where my brain kind of skips a beat. It's jolting in kind of the same way almost falling asleep in class is, that moment where you snap out of it and your head snaps up and you are completely awake. My brain kind of trips over something - a physical sensation or someone's posture or something. (...normal, normal, normal, normal, THING, normal, normal - what just happened?!?, normal, normal, normal...) I don't have these moments very often. They last for about a second. They really throw me, because they are kind of a very blatant hind brain override; they're like a temporary hijacking or a glitch.

Hopefully some of that is useful and comprehensible and so on.

I am fascinated (and glad) to hear that kissing doesn't always make sense (or at least not right off the bat) for sexual people too!

Thank you for your explanation of how you experience sexual attraction too! So for you sexual attraction does not have a specifically sexual component to it, only other physical stuff?

Clarification: What do you mean by "a specifically sexual component"? (I'm not sure what you're asking.)

Okay! Um, sorry, I'm having trouble finding a way to phrase this without sounding like I'm interrogating you or something, which, totally not what I'm doing, I'm just genuinely trying to figure stuff out.

But so I guess what I'm asking is, when you are sexually attracted to a person, you do not experience this as, mm, finding yourself having a strong desire to have sex with them (or kiss them, or whatever) when you look at them or think of them or are in their presence, and you also do not experience this as involving feelings of arousal when you look at them/think of them/are in their presence?

:) I am not feeling interrogated (though now I am picturing Inspector Clouseau asking your question and am a little entertained).

when you are sexually attracted to a person, you do not experience this as, mm, finding yourself having a strong desire to have sex with them (or kiss them, or whatever) when you look at them or think of them or are in their presence
Not that often, no. I tend not to look at someone and think Kissing! (Or whatever!) Us! unless I'm already thinking Kissing! (Or whatever!) I would like some of that!; I don't tend to look at people and think that unless I've already got a more general desire. The way that desire feels can be pretty similar to (using non-sexual examples) I would kind of like a hug now. or IF I DO NOT GO FOR A BRISK WALK I AM GOING TO JUMP OUT OF MY SKIN - so there's a range in that.

you also do not experience this as involving feelings of arousal when you look at them/think of them/are in their presence?
I mostly fail to receive messages that my body sends me. Unless arousal hits me like a punch to the gut I probably will not notice. (I forget meals sometimes, too.)

'I think of kissing as a communications thing. It's a "there you are", an exercise in cooperative movement, an interaction, there are different tones with the amount of pressure and tongue and teeth that's used.'

...this suddenly clicked with my brain. In a backwards sort of way.

Okay, see - this is complicated: I was writing a fic where I was using "play" swordfighting with wooden swords as a form of intimacy thing between two adult guys. Because, you know, it's this really intense physical two-person activity, where you have to be totally conscious of your partner and paying attention to all their nonverbal communication in order for nobody to get hurt. (So, in my head, it's kind of a nonsexual "I give myself to you" thing: "I give you my attention, my trust, my energy - and I am totally going to pwn the hell out of you if you don't watch out." *g*)

So anyway. I had this whole thing about how there has to be kind of a formalized first-strike-and-parry thing in order to let your partner clue in to how you're feeling, what level of scrap you're in the mood for. And... IDK, just - with the way you put that about kissing, I was suddenly "OMG that's it! Kissing is the sexual equivalent of that thing! Stuff makes so much more sense now!"

(So, er, of course I had to write an insanely long and late comment saying so. ;P Tl;dr: thank you for your very clear explanation. *smile*)

I'm glad that was useful for you. :) It took me a while to figure out the kissing thing; I suspect that other people's approaches to it are a little (or a lot) different.

The swords thing is interesting and makes me think a little about how that kind of footage gets used in vidding. There's this clip that I've seen in Highlander vids (I've not seen any of the source) of Duncan with a sword to Methos' throat at the end of a duel and there's this look on Methos' face.

Well, I'm in a long-term relationship, so I don't really get a lot of the kind of sparkage they talk about in first-time fics, and I don't tend to get random crushes on people either (I use fandom as a vent for my romantic energy, so I won't fall for someone else IRL and mess up my monogamous relationship; this works remarkably well for me). But, with those qualifiers:

And with an awareness that my similes might not work very well for you either, because presumably there's a whole different bunch of wiring going on:

*goes to do dishes and think about it*

Okay. Hai, I haven't written a poem in years, and this is not the kind of poem I used to write (too abstract), but here's what I've got:

Give us this day

I am letting you into the intimate
space near my mouth, my mouth,
my lips welcome your lips,
our breath merges and we are one.

You hold me and
we are one
with your lips on mine.

We mark each entrance and exit with kisses, some
casual, some which linger or
make us laugh, or need repeating over
and over. If you hesitate as you leave, I

have to say goodbye
again. There are many exits
and entrances in our lives; over
and over, we greet each other

into ourselves
and share love with our lips.

Um. Yeah. So there's that. (Whereas I think kissing someone for the first time is more like getting on a rollercoaster blindfolded, where the rollercoaster is another person, and your head is going OMG! And your heart is going OMG! And your body's going OMGOMGOMG!)

*resolutely does not get embarrassed about the poem* ;-)

ETA: And oh, doh, that was all about kissing. I didn't even start to address the attraction thing. I'm heading out soon, but I'll think about that later tonight. :-)

Edited 2011-05-13 04:49 (UTC)

Okay, I - I think I can see what you're getting at? THANK YOU, at any rate!

What is it about kissing (for the first time) that makes all of you go OMG? I mean, I think I get the emotion behind it, but what is it about the physical act that's so OMG?

And yay, thanks so much, I will look forward to your thoughts on the attraction thing! <3

but what is it about the physical act that's so OMG?

It's a chemical reaction, I guess, so (as I recall, and ftr, it's been over a decade since I kissed someone for the first time) a little like being a little drunk, some head rush, and your breathing speeds up, which can make you a little light-headed, and there's a rush of warmth and (sometimes) arousal, which is alluring and exhilarating (hence the rollercoaster analogy) and feels good. Plus you're entering someone's personal space, face to face, often someone you really really like and want to like you. Hmmm, maybe it's akin to the warmth of being admired by someone you admire, multiplied by lots? With some fizzy-exciting chemicals thrown in?

Yeah, okay, fair enough. I like the description in the last two sentences - that does feel useful. But I think what I am trying to get at is, why is it this particular physical thing that does all this? It feels like a mostly-random choice of body parts to me!

(hmmm, now I'm really wanting to write about Vulcan finger-kissing....)

It feels like a mostly-random choice of body parts to me!

Well, humans have most of their nerve endings in their hands, mouths and genitals, so I guess that's the main reason, and since we'll put our hands pretty much anywhere (*g*), mouths and genitals are generally considered more private, and therefore more intimate. (Also there are theories about oral fixations dating back to childhood and breastfeeding, but I don't have strong opinions on those one way or the other.) Generally speaking, sexual people are wired to enjoy (and get turned on from) kissing. [Insert usual disclaimer wrt generalisations; there are apparently some cultures who don't kiss.]

Does that help?

Yeah, I guess the nerve-ending thing does make sense, even if I do find it weird!

Well, it's also custom. Like, you know, if it signifies affection and intimacy in the/a general popular culture, that's going to embed itself in a lot of people's (sub)consciouses, and it becomes a self-fulfilling expectation. :-)

(Still thinking about the attraction thing. Must beta a fic first.)

Edited 2011-05-14 01:54 (UTC)

Very true!

(awesome. Have fun with the betaing!)

Er, sorry, I feel like I'm kind of interrogating you or something. I hope I'm not coming off that way! I'm just really curious, and trying to figure all this stuff out!

Hee! It's fine. My replies are a little sporadic because I have guests (which is clearly not keeping me away from the internets entirely).

Oh hooray, TMI and trying to overanalyze things that probably can't be analyzed very well! My favorite activities! XD

Okay, so I am a queer woman in my mid-20s; nearly all of my sexual experience has been with men ( :-( ); I'm in a long-term relationship that is polyamorous, and am currently dating two other guys in addition to my primary partner.

I think there's a huge amount of variation in how sexual people experience sexual attraction (just as I am sure there is a huge amount of variation among asexual people!). For me there's a lot of fuzzy boundaries between sexual and non-sexual attraction, and a huge mental component to both (smart people are hot; not so smart people, no matter how physically pretty...not so much).

Sexual attraction

I experience different types of sexual attraction.

1) There's the visual--oooh, that person is really nice to look at--which I experience fairly often and generally in passing. For me, attractiveness is very closely linked to personality, so my opinion of someone's visible attractiveness may go up or down once I get to know them. I know a handful of people I originally thought were pretty who I now find mildly repellant because I dislike them so much. I experience casual "oh, pretty!" fairly often, as my physical preferences are broad and I generally find a lot of humans at least a little attractive. It's brief and doesn't take much brainspace or distract me from stuff I need to do.

This is the kind of attraction I have for actors (or rather, the characters they play--I am usually not interested in the actors themselves, because actors are usually boring and as I mentioned, attraction and personality are closely tied for me).

2) There's the OMG BRAIN SHUTTING DOWN NOW overwhelming lust, which is mostly physical but sometimes has some mental component. I've only experienced this a few times, with people I don't know terribly well. That mostly involves trying really hard not to stare at their cheekbones/ass/hair/whatever and struggling to form coherent sentences. It's some kind of weird hindbrain thing that absolutely eats my brain and interferes with talking and doing things, but I have experienced this with…less than half a dozen people in my life. With those people, it occurred every time I saw them, although over time I got better at holding up my end of a conversation. These people are not necessarily people I should actually sleep with (I've never had the chance) or people I want to date (often they aren't), which makes me think it might be some sort of basic pheremonally-driven mating drive or something (FWIW, I have only had this type of attraction to men, although that may also be because I am more comfortable with women socially and generally don't get awkward/tongue-tied around women and not because my body wants to make babies even though my brain emphatically does not...IDK, though).

3) Then there's what I consider sexual attraction with intent--the kind of attraction I have to people I know well enough to know I actually want to date/have sex with them. There's a continuum here depending on social context from "I really really enjoy talking to this person and learning about their sexy brains also I would like to touch their haaaaaair" to "making out is awesome and I am turned on."

I would not say I experience it every single time I see the person--I've been with my partner for 7+ years now and I do not think about sex every time I see or touch him--but in new relationships the frequency of sexual attraction/thoughts is much higher. There's a common polyamory term "New Relationship Energy" to describe the giddy, nervous high of a new relationship, which often has a lot of sexual attraction rolled into it. When I'm in NRE, especially the first few dates, I'm nervous and my stomach flips a lot; I feel more socially awkward than usual. I think about the person a lot and want to talk to them ALL THE TIME (sexy brains!). I blush and squeak a lot, especially if there's flirting. I may get physically turned on by normally innocuous touches, and if things go into the bedroom, I usually get aroused much more quickly and intensely than usual.

Kissing

Hmm. Well, the first guy I kissed was awful. I mean really awful. My roommate, who also made out with him later described it as being like "kissing a gawping fish". There was tongue on my chin and it was super-gross and not at all enjoyable.

The second guy I kissed was an asshole, but as I vaguely recall, an okay kisser. After that I spent a few years kissing a lot of people at parties, and most of them were okay, some were bad, and some were quite fun. One of the guys I'm dating is…really not a compatible kisser for me--like, on our first date, after flirting through dinner and getting a nice nervous-attraction buzz going, he kissed me with WAY too much tongue, too aggressively, and it was like a bucket of cold water on my sexual interest (he turned out to be pretty fun in other ways, fortunately). So with him I either make sure I'm controlling the kiss (yay, submissives?) or I avoid kissing him, because I have not quite managed to explain/demonstrate to him quite how I prefer kissing and have not figured out how to further broach the topic without hurting his feelings.

I guess I'm fairly picky about kissing style (not into super wet/deep/tongue-y kissing), so I have a pretty short list of people I really enjoy kissing sexually.

With someone of compatible style, I really enjoy kissing. There are a lot of nerve endings in the mouth, and I generally, uh, like having things in my mouth from a tactile POV rather than a solely psychological one (fingers…other things…). Nerve endings, woot! Lips are soft. It's intimate. It feels good. Sometimes it's a little arousing, especially during NRE. With first kisses especially there's an edge of nervousness that for me at least is very bound up with arousal/attraction/NRE. *shrug*

But sometimes my lips get chapped, or people need to brush their teeth, and kissing is not anywhere near my favorite sexual thing (from a tactile POV, sucking on someone's fingers is a much bigger turn-on for me), although closed-mouth affectionate kissing is quite important to me, and I wish it were more common between friends.

Hope that's sort of helpful! I'd be happy to attempt to answer further questions.

Ooh, thank you so much for the lovely long detailed response! I will sit and let this all percolate for a while and see if I end up with more things I want to ask you!

A question for you.

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...er. My asexual babbling, let me show you it. O_O

Re: ...er. My asexual babbling, let me show you it. O_O

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